110 — The Shock of the Old, a conversation with David Edgerton

This is again an exceptional conversation. For a long time, I
looked forward to speaking with Prof. David Edgerton. He is
currently a Fellow at the Wissenschaftskolleg zu Berlin and Hans
Rausing Professor of the History of Science and Technology at
King's College London.  He is a noted historian of the
United Kingdom as well as historian of technology and science. In
the latter field he is best known for the book “Shock of the
Old” which has been translated into many languages.  He
is also known in the UK for his commentaries on political and
historical matters in the press.  He is also a Fellow of the
British Academy.


I read this book some years ago, and it left quite an impression
on me. We talk about technology, or rather, why the word should
not be used, about progress and stagnation; what role technology
plays in societal change, if we really live in an age with an
unseen pace of innovation, and much more.


We start with the question of how the book title “Shock of the
Old” came about. What does the term “technology” mean, how does
it relate to other terms like “technium” or the German terms
“Technologie” and “Technik”, and why is it a problematic
term? 


“Technology is a very problematic concept, and if I would write
the book again, I would not use the term. […] Technology is a
concept that macerates the brain as it conflates multiple
concepts.”


What is creole technology? Did we experience 50 years of unseen
progress, or rather stagnation? How can we understand the
reference of David Deutsch comparing the Solvay Conference 100
years ago with the current state of physics? Are we rather
experiencing what Peter Kruse compares to a crab basket:


“There's always a lot of momentum in a crab basket, but on closer
inspection, you realise that nothing is really moving forward.”,
Peter Kruse


Can the 20th century be considered the playing out of the 19th
century? What about the 21st century? Is technological
change the driver of all change, or is technical change only one
element of change in society? Does the old disappear? For
instance, Jean-Baptiste Fressoz describes the global energy
consumption in his book More and More and More.


“There has not been an energy transition, there has been a
super-imposition of new techniques on old ones. […] We are living
in the great age of coal.”


What is the material constitution of our world today? For
example, Vaclav Smil makes it apparent, that most people have a
quite biased understanding of how our world actually works.


How can change happen? Do we wish for evolution, or rather a
revolution?


“The world in which we find ourselves at the start of the new
millennium is littered with the debris of utopian projects.”,
John Gray


Can technological promise also be a reason for avoiding change?


“Technological revolution can be a way of avoiding change. […]
There will be a revolution in the future that will solve our
problems. […] Relying only on innovation is a recipe for
inaction.”


Do technologists tend to overpromise what their technology might
deliver? For instance, the trope that this new technology will
bring peace can be found over centuries.


Is maintenance an underestimated topic in out society and at
universities? What role does maintenance play in our modern
society in comparison to innovation? For example, Cyrus W. Field
who built the first transatlantic cable between the US and UK
proclaimed in an address to the American Geographical and
Statistical Society in 1862


“its value can hardly be estimated to the commerce, and even to
the peace, of the world.”


What is university knowledge, where does it come from, and how
does it relate to knowledge of a society? How should we think
about the idea of university lead innovation?


“There is a systematic overestimation of the university.”


Is there a cult of the entrepreneur? Who is actually driving
change in society? Who decides about technical change? Moreover,
most innovations are rejected:


“We should reject most of innovation; otherwise we are inundated
with stuff.”


Are me even making regressions in society — Cory Doctorow calls
it enshittification?


“We’re all living through a great enshittening, in which the
services that matter to us, that we rely on, are turning into
giant piles of shit. It’s frustrating. It’s demoralising. It’s
even terrifying.”, Cory Doctorow


What impact will artificial intelligence have, and who controls
the future? 


“Humans are in control already. The question is which human.”


References


Other Episodes


other English episodes

Episode 107: How to Organise Complex Societies? A
Conversation with Johan Norberg

Episode 100: Live im MQ, Was ist Wissen. Ein Gespräch mit
Philipp Blom

Episode 92: Wissen und Expertise Teil 2

Episode 80: Wissen, Expertise und Prognose, eine Reflexion

Episode 91: Die Heidi-Klum-Universität, ein Gespräch mit
Prof. Ehrmann und Prof. Sommer

Episode 88: Liberalismus und Freiheitsgrade, ein Gespräch mit
Prof. Christoph Möllers

Episode 71: Stagnation oder Fortschritt — eine Reflexion an
der Geschichte eines Lebens

Episode 45: Mit »Reboot« oder Rebellion aus der Krise?

Episode 38: Eliten, ein Gespräch mit Prof. Michael Hartmann

Episode 35: Innovation oder: Alle Existenz ist Wartung?

Episode 18: Gespräch mit Andreas Windisch: Physik,
Fortschritt oder Stagnation



Dr. David Edgerton...


... at Wissenschaftskolleg zu Berlin

... at King's College London

... at Centre for the History of Science, Technology and
Medicine

... at the British Academy

Personal Website

...  on X

David Edgerton, The Shock Of The Old: Technology and Global
History since 1900, Profile Books (2019)



Other References


David Graeber, Peter Thiel, Where Did the Future Go (2020)

Conversations with Coleman, Multiverse of Madness with David
Deutsch (2023)

Peter Kruse, next practice. Erfolgreiches Management von
Instabilität. Veränderung durch Vernetzung, Gabal (2020)

Jean-Baptiste Fressoz, More and More and More: An
All-Consuming History of Energy, Allen Lane (2024)

Vaclav Smil, How the World Really Works, Penguin (2022)

John Gray, Black Mass, Pengui (2008)

Ainissa Ramirez, A Wire Across the Ocean, American Scientist
(2015)

Thomas Sowell, intellectuals and Society, Basic Books (2010)

Peter Thiel Fellowship

Cory Doctorow, ‘Enshittification’ is coming for absolutely
everything, Financial Times (2024)